Shadowgirls

Most stories like this are balanced on the Good and Evil Scale. You have your heroes and villains, okay?

Obviously the Slaad are less than favorable characters. Evil? Could be, and at this point they do appear evil to us. Intelligent, yes, to a point as it seems. But do they think that what they are doing is evil? And why are they even trying to eliminate the Shadow Children in the first place?

Speaking of the Shadow Children, are they good, or are they evil? So far, I haven't really seen Charon and Becka do many things that would classify them as Good. But then, we're only two issues in and nearing the end of the second.

After Charon killed the Slaad in front of the bar in issue #2, she went for Snow. What would have happened if the 'Shadowmeld' had not gone into remission? Why did it go into remission? Is it because Charon found mercy in the pitiful cry of Snow's would-be last words? Or is there a time-clock on the 'Shadowmeld?' (I'm calling it Shadowmeld because I don't know what else to call it. If I'm wrong, please correct me.)

So... Who's good, and who's evil?

I personally prefer "shadowformed".

Then Shadowformed it is!

I think it says something that we can look at demonic, bloodthirsty creatures from the depths and ask "are they really evil?"

Yes. Yes they are. Let's suppose that they are acting under orders to destroy any touched by the mysterious shadow entity that gave the McKay's their alternate forms. Let us also suppose that said entity is of the reality-ending variety, and any use of shadow powers (or indeed, simply becoming shadowformed) runs a small but discrete risk of rending the fabric of existence. Even with that motivation, the Slaad STILL do far more harm than is necessary. They slaughtered a boat of innocents, and the Inconsequential Scenery Bitches, and exhibited no signs of remorse. They are familiar with the concept of mercy, but have not been shown to grant it.

I will take this opportunity to mention that I also found myself wondering if the Slaad were actually evil, or if it would play out somewhat similar to the gargoyles of the Ultima series - they have a completely different virtue system, but they adhere to that just as strongly as we humans do to ours. The Slaad may be working towards the greater good, and maybe they consider the deaths of a few individuals (human, Slaad, or other) to be of little or no consequence in comparison. But I just don't think that holds.

So, we have a self-aware creature that kills needlessly...that's about as evil as you can get.

~KoF

Playing Devil's Advocate here.

What about someone like Galactus? After all, he is self-aware, but he has killed trillions for selfish reasons. Yet, is he really evil? If you ask the greater schemes of the universe and Galactus himself, the answer is no. He only does what he must to survive, much like us when we kill a cow for beef to make that bacon double cheeseburger we crave so much. Yet, if you ask the surviving people of the planets he's devoured, they might say without hesitation that he's the devil himself.

Taking another example, Namor the Sub-Mariner. How many innocent people died in his many misguided attacks on the surface world? And yet, he's allowed to fight along side the greatest of the world's heroes as a friend? Meanwhile, Hulk's never killed anyone and he gets shot into space for property damage. Johnny Blaze is essentially a demon from Hell, and Danny Ketch's Ghost Rider was the Angel of Death, yet they fight for the greater good in the world.

Some could say that Charon's own actions with her unhealthy life style puts herself and in a round about way, Becka's life in danger. What about the marriages she's knowingly disrupted? It may seem like apples and oranges, but to someone, she's that "evil slut who made my husband cheat on me!"

Isn't evil really about perspective?

All invalid comparisons.
Galactus is not evil - self-preservation rarely is. There is no alternate course of action for him to pursue, no way for him to stop devouring worlds and remain living. A "necessary evil" is no evil at all.

Prince Namor was, exactly as you said, misguided. He learned to distinguish between the wicked and the innocent among the surface-dwellers, and so became good.

Now, as for the Hulk...his actions while rational were all good, or at least selfish, which puts him into the "not evil" category. And all the people and things that Hulk Smash! really brought it upon themselves. If they had not antagonized a largely innocent man, they would not have green restitution rained down upon them.

Johnny Blaze and the second Ghost Rider, even Spawn to a lesser extent, are prime examples of people overcoming their basic nature to become stalwart champions of good.

Bringing death does not make you evil. Choosing to inflict suffering on the undeserving does. Mistletoe Snow, for example, is (as far as we have seen) evil.
I'm still working on Charon - is torturing oneself evil, especially when it impacts the well-being of others? What about acts of desperation? I know that she gives off the image of a remorseless homewrecker, but is that really her fault? Is that really evil, or just simple human cruelty? Is there a difference?

Hm, the black and white worldview seems to be fading, I'll have to continue this later.

~KoF

You have to ask, however, if this story really works in terms of good v. evil. In the H.P. Lovecraft universe, which Shadowgirls is at least partially based on, good and evil are simply human constructs. It's more of an "us v. them" kind of thing, where "they" are just completely alien in terms of everything, and only against us because we just happen to be in each other's way. Either that or they're so far above us that we're just ants who can hope we don't get stepped on.

Even in a traditional sense of good v. evil, you have to question their ability to reason. They're smarter than animals, but we don't know by how much. They only seem about a notch above zombies. Perhaps they're drawn to shadowformed by some kind of basic instinct, and lack the ability to understand that following that instinct is wrong. If that is the case, they're simply beasts - but not evil.

True that, but when August Derleth established the "posthumous collaboration" with Lovecraft, he brought in a good versus evil dualism. While some Lovecraft fans argue Derlith's contributions as "retconning", it IS there. Me and D.Rod are using the Cthulu Mythos as more of a "spiritual backdrop" than an outright continuity. For example, the town of Insmouth in the Cthulu Mythos is described as a "decaying small town or wide extent and dense construction that was dark and almost decayed". Of course no town stays the same for over a century, and we changed it to more of an iconic New England town, like Stars Hollow from the Gilmore Girls.

That being said, I'm more of a "good versus evil" kind of guy who's fond of happy endings. D.Rod's more gray in nature, not liking absolute divides of good and evil. (I think it's the role playing geek in him, where I just played with too many Autobots as a kid.) Charon's hardly a good person, as she, perhaps knowingly, engages in a self destructive life style that would only harm her, and Becka, in the end. We've already seen how having a reputation like that has affected Becka, to the point of an attempted triple gangrape. Someone once said about Charon, that she's accused of being a trailer trash skank... And they're probably not too far off from the truth. Yet she's far from a bad person as well, as she's a loving and devoted mother, who's given up so much of her life to help her daughter get ahead and stay on top of things. She has a distinct grander sense of right and wrong and was raised that way. (There's more to that, but I can't tell you guys about that without D.Rod murdering me.) Even Lindsey, she really is a true friend to Becka. However she made a major mistake and almost sold her friend out for popularity. She risked her life to save her, but Becka wouldn't have been put into that situation in the first place if Lindsey hadn't be so selfish. And even Christmas has a reason to hate Charon so much...

(And just so you all know, I may know more than you guys on this stuff, but in many ways, I'm in as much of the dark as you guys. I come up with some ideas, but I'm not the writer. I mean, D.Rod keep a lot of stuff from me until I get it in script form.)

And um... You'll all have a really good answer to a few of your points by Thursday.

Even in a traditional sense of good v. evil, you have to question their ability to reason. They're smarter than animals, but we don't know by how much. They only seem about a notch above zombies. Perhaps they're drawn to shadowformed by some kind of basic instinct, and lack the ability to understand that following that instinct is wrong. If that is the case, they're simply beasts - but not evil.

The mind that can develop and utilize complex symbol systems (such as language) are far enough advanced to have developed a sense of morality. The Deep Ones understand fear, pain, and suffering. They understand mercy, and do not show it. They also give and follow orders, suggesting a society or civilization of some sort - there is no authority without a group mentality.

Name any other social creature with at least basic language skills that does NOT have a sense of compassion.
(Please note, I do not consider the dance of bees to be language - it's basically just pointing.)

~KoF

PS - Curse you, Reynolds. Like I'm not already going to have a difficult time waiting for the story to start up again. And then I have to wait until THURSDAY...Grah.

KingOfFools wrote:Name any other social creature with at least basic language skills that does NOT have a sense of compassion.

Chicago Bears fans.

I thought I said basic language skills...

And besides, Bears fans pretty much HAVE to have a sense of compassion, or at the very least, pity.

~KoF

A good story is where the "bad" guys win. Not necessarily all the time. the Beast Wars episode "Changing of the Guard" is a prime example. I remember seeing that the first time and my jaw just fell open when Megatron activated Sentinel. The Predacons actually won one when it really counted. There's an old adage that is so true. "Sometimes, no matter how hard you try, no matter how right you are, sometimes the dragon wins".

Oh course then you have Dr. Who, where he can't win, can't win, can't win, and then he says "Just this once, Rose. Just this once, everybody lives!"

So you need both sides. Good guys don't always win, they CAN'T always win. Even Perry Mason lost. Once. But then again if you have the bad guys winning all the time, it looks slanted the other direction.

That being said, I think Shadowgirls is on the right path.

Using Beast Wars as an example there... The Predacons didn't just win a couple of times. Technically, Megatron WON the Beast Wars, as a Vehicon overridden Cybertron shows us.

Granted, but that was, well, to quote Nightscream "You fumbled the ball at the last yard line" or second or something. Either way it makes no sense why he would have knowledge of American Football. Ahem.

My point being that, while yes he did win, you weren't actually left with the knowledge that he won. Unlike in Changing of the Guard. And Victory, Before the Storm, Other Voices, Tangled Web (okay, that was Tarantulas), Maximal No More, Other Visits, Bad Spark, Agenda, Cutting Edge, Feral Scream 1, Master Blaster and Nemesis 1.

Aaaand I'm watching the show again.

God, I'm sorry but I can't really see this as a Transformers/other comic thing. I have to break it down for myself in D&D standards. If only because it tackles all of these issues. You see. You can be good. You can be bad. You can be lawful. And you can be chaotic. Or you could be all of those things (True neutral FTW). There is no way to simply classify someone as good or evil, you must take both spectrums into account. Attention and Intention:

Galactus: Chaotic Neutral (probably) - He didn't devour planets because he had the desire to, he devoured planets because he had to live. But in the same light, couldn't he have inhabited planets without life? (I'm not familiar with his background and too lazy to wiki). The way he goes about surviving is chaotic, and while he could do more to push himself to the "good" side of the spectrum, he sounds more like a neutral grey area to me.

Johnny Blaze: Lawful Neutral/Evil? - Johnny goes by his law. Although he only hunts badass criminals and fiends and the occasional random criminal caught in the act, he doesn't take into account man's law or justice in any other means but death.

The Hulk: Chaotic Good - Yes he gets angry and destroys stuff. Just a hint, that's the chaotic part. But he doesn't intentionally harm people or things, without due cause to do so. He tries to stay out of the way when he's not playing green giant and generally tries to protect the innocent/good without taking the lives of all who oppose him.

Charon: True Neutral - When threatened, she kicks ass. Given the need, she defends herself, and if she let herself go, I'm sure she'd go for the three S's... (shoot em, shovel em and shhhh) but she does have some restraint, which is what made me toss her into the neutral category instead of the evil. She's not above the law, but she's not against it, either (self defense is not against the law). So she has a less than stellar record for her social life. I think that more has to do with her background and psychology (lost out on the only man she loved because she told him to go away, so she doesn't believe she deserves anyone, or that anyone is good enough to be around her daughter, so instead she uses them for sex and sends them packing. The drinking is just a little social lubricant.)

Becca: Lawful Good - She's a good girl, it's easy enough to see. She's got a good heart, she doesn't go vigilante on the gang rapist bastards and getting to safety and keeping those close to her safe is her top priority. Not vengence. Not rage. Not greed. She's good. It's hard to see her character as a lawbreaker or a mercenary.

Misty Snow: Neutral Evil - She uses all the cards she's been dealt to turn the world in her favor. Sometimes her plans don't work and the vicious things she desires to see happen to people fall through. I'll stick her at neutral evil for now, but I really haven't seen enough of her character to know whether or not she's better off in the chaotic light.