Shadowgirls

Zuggarama?

I simply felt this was an interesting enough topic to require it's own thread. DRey may simply be referring to Chrissy as being highly regarded by the Slaad because she is the Mother of their "Mother". We also have the important mother-daughter relationship between Charon and Becka, But NOT Charon's Grandmother since she was a McKay (Charon's Father's Mother).
Wikipedia Article

MachSaber (DRey) said:"Well, we're not talking timelines, we're talkin' genetics here. Carbon dating isn't really a factor in this, it's more Phylogenetics and Generation Mathematics that give us our time frame. But you need to remember, this is all theory, and in a way, science theory, until proven, is just as questionable as any myth or religion.

No one (in their right mind) had said that Mitochondrial Eve is the "genesis of all humans" as that would lead more to a population bottlenecking. She's not so much a single person as much as she is the most recent common matrilineal ancestor of all humans via the mitochondrial DNA pathway, and not the unqualified most recent common ancestor of all humanity. (Slight difference. Like the differences between fact and truth.) All living humans can trace their ancestry back to the most recent common ancestor via at least one of their parents, but Mitochondrial Eve can only be reached via the maternal line.

In otherwords, "she's the mother of our mother".

Keep that line in mind over the next several page updates. Trust me, it'll make it all cooler for you."

So thats what Tragg means *lol*

Almost certainly nothing to do with what ShadowCharon was saying but what the heck.

Mitochondrial Eve is called Lorn!

Tragg and the Sky Gods

It needs to be remembered, we are nerds.

For example, tonight... I was talking to someone about Green Lantern's power ring, and then somehow the conversation turned into me relating the history of Morpheus of the Dreaming's Dream Ruby and the entire first arc of Sandman's preludes and Nocturnes from memory... A story from 20 years ago, without me looking it up once.

Well the Eve from Dream was certainly different:

Dream's Eve

The maiden, the mother and the Crone. But all one person.

Although I also noted the patern around the eye of their embodiment of Death. The eye of Horus.

Dream's DEATH

Well, we know that Mckay and Shane are Irish names, so I figured I'd see what the mtDNA research was for Ireland. Unfortunately the only seem to be specific on the Y-chromosome input but it all seems to indicate a general date back to "Old Stone Age hunter gatherers." See below:

Current genetic research supports the idea that the Y-chromosomes and mtDNA of people living in Britain and Ireland are mainly descended from the indigenous European Paleolithic (Old Stone Age hunter gatherers) population, with a smaller Neolithic (New Stone Age farmers) input particularly with the Y-chromosomes and mtDNA from people of the Celtiberians or Galicians of Galicia (Spain).[23] Paleolithic Europeans seem to have been a homogenous population, possibly due to a population bottleneck (or near-extinction event) on the Iberian peninsula, where a small human population is thought to have survived the glaciation, and then expanded into Europe during the Mesolithic period. The assumed genetic imprint of Neolithic incomers is seen as a cline, with stronger Neolithic representation in the east of Europe and stronger Paleolithic representation in the west of Europe.[24] The frequencies of Y-chromosome haplotypes in the Irish population are similar to that of most other populations of Atlantic Europe, especially the Basques of northern Spain and southern France.[25][20] Y-chromosome analysis also seems to indicate that the Vikings that settled in Dublin came from Norway rather than Denmark.[20] Mitochondrial DNA, which is inherited through the female line, shows part of the maternal ancestors of the Irish to be of broad north European origin, while confirming the Atlantic link.[25]

There is genetic evidence that a majority of Irish maternal and paternal lineages descend from Paleolithic and Mesolithic west Europeans who arrived after the end of the last Ice Age, noting the high presence of the genetic marker known as Atlantic Modal Haplotype (AMH) among the Irish.[26] This is associated with haplogroup R1b and is the most common R1b haplotype in western Europe. R1b averages 90% amongst Irish Y-Chromosomes, and 90% amongst Y-Chromosomes of Basques people. The AMH+1 haplotype has a frequency of 53% in central Ireland (Castlerea) and 60% in the Basque Country, it also achieves a greater than 50% frequency in other regions of the British Isles, namely Pitlochry, Oban, Morpeth, Penrith, Isle of Man, Llangefni, Haverfordwest, Midhurst and Cornwall. Curiously, the Irish samples of Castlerea and Rush (Dublin) have some of the highest frequencies of haplogroup R1xR1a1 (37% and 45% respectively), with the Scottish samples of Durness and Stonehaven being the only others that surpass 30%.[20]

From Wikipedia 2008:
Genetic Settlement of Great Britain and Ireland.

Speaking of The Dreaming's Eve, I was always entertained by the old Hebrew folk stories about Lilith... and that fact that in almost every single other story in that cycle Adam comes across as being a spineless, petulant little whiner that needed putting in his place more than a little. And they wondered why Lucifer wouldn't take a knee in front of this idiot who spent most of his life in Paradise doing nothing but complain! And then God does nothing but back him up and then is incredulous about Lilith's insistance on getting up and leaving the Garden for good... proof if you ever needed it God's a bloke

Now where do we begin... ah, back in Eden a long, long time ago...

'God, I'm lonely. Make me an companion,' says Adam. 'Ok,' says the Big Guy, and he makes Adam someone like himself. He shows the unfinished being to Adam 'This ok?' asks God. 'Well,' says Adam, 'all the beasts here in the garden have a mate... can't this be my mate too?' 'Why not,' says the Big G, and he makes the creature female.

'God, what happens if she runs away from me? I'll be alone here again.' God rolls his eyes a bit and says 'Oookay...' and joins them back to back. Adam's happy... for about five minutes.

'God,' says Adam (with more than a hint of complaint in his voice) 'Lilith and I do nothing but argue... I want to go one place, she wants to go to another, I do one thing, she wants to do something else... plus like this we can't lie together as the other creatures do... hint hint...' God gets the idea and seperates them. He puts his feet up for a bit. Not for too long, mind you.

'God!' says Adam. The Man Upstairs sighs a bit. 'Lilith's just out of control! Tell her to do what I tell her to!' 'How'd you mean?' mutters God, wanting to go work on bigger and better things like the Rubik's Cube.

'Well, she goes hunting - that's my job! She's as good at it as I am too! She always has her own ideas about what to do, where to go, and all that... then on top of all that... she wants to go on top all the time! She says underneath her is where I belong! And it's only when she wants to do it, not when I want to!' God does his best to hide his chuckles and goes off to chat to Lilith. Lilith is off doing her own thing (probably inventing the wheel or brushing her hair because she had a lot of it - down to her ankles at least).

'Yo God,' says Lilith, 'what's shaking?' God explains Adam's laundry list of complaints. Lilith counters that they are equal in almost every way; she can do everything Adam can do just as well as him, but on top of that, she can carry a child. Surely that means she's better than Adam - he can't create Jack. Plus, she notes, that she doesn't go crying to God every five minutes. God convinces her to give it a go (and points out that she can't make a child without Adam's input); for the sake of peace and quiet at least, so Lilith goes to Adam and peace reigns... for about a day and a half.

'God!' whines Adam yet again, 'she's still being weird! Now she's insisting that we work out our differences and she keeps banging on about "give and take," whatever that is... and when we have sex she only wants us to do it side-by-side, because we're EQUAL! Tell her I'm in charge! I want to go on top all the time, too - that's what all the other animals in here do... with maybe the exception of the snakes, but that's not the point...' By now God's wishing he'd made earplugs on the 7th day, so he goes to Lilith and quite frankly raises his voice a bit. Lilith cocks her eyebrow a little and gets the idea that God is missing the point somewhat, so she turns on her heel (while God's talking to her, which pisses off the Big Guy to no end and frankly makes him start acting a bit like Adam towards her from that moment on) and makes straight for the exit, giving the bird over her shoulder the whole way out... over the wall outside the garden there's this Lucifer guy who seems to understand her a lot better...

Peace reigns in Eden (finally)...

'God...' whinges Adam, 'I'm lonely again.' God has a bit of a fit, shouts at Adam for a while and then surrenders himself to the idea. He sends a group of angels to get Lilith back from Lucifer and his lot. God meanwhile thinks he has a solution to Adam's constant complaints, so he makes Eve for him (out of the stuff of Adam's body - one of his ribs - just so she knows who wears the trousers in the relationship from day one) and sits back and waits for the next generation to pop up.

Lilith is sat at the side of an inland sea dipping her toes. She's also obviously been busy with Lucifer because she's visibly pregnant and she has a brood of youngsters already. God's messengers turn up and tell her to come back to the garden. She tells them where to get off. God pipes in and says that if she doesn't go back almost every child she attempts to have will die at birth (because he's one of those merciful and loving deities - sorry, this story has always said to me that this folklaw incarnation of God at least can be seriously unpleasant - and in some versions they do't die but turn into owls). Lilith realises God can make good on this promise, so she swears if that happens she'll kill every single male child Adam and his new mate has for all eternity. Lucifer has shared some of his power with her and she can make such oaths and be able to deliver on it.

The angels shuffle off (feeling more than a little offput about the outcome of it all) and sure enough, Lilith's children die at birth and so does the rest of her brood. Lilith more or less forget the promise to go on a childkilling rampage, and goes off to the same inland sea to drown herself; she's heartbroken as you might imagine. The angels come back, and talk her out of it, and strike an under-the-table deal with Lilith. If Lilith finds the names of the three angels who came to her written close to a boy-child, she can't harm them. In return she can have her own children without knowing they're all doomed to die - some of them still will however as God's will can't be utterly undone. Lilith agrees, and from then onwards Lilith only has power over mortal children for a handful of days - longer for girls than boys, naturally - and based on some texts she gave up on killing children altogether and treats all newborns as hers to compensate for those of her own that perish; some Talmidic traditions state that if a baby giggles for no reason, Lilith is entertaining it. And in case we forget completely, Lilith's children with Lucifer are distinctly demonic...

There are a lot of different myths that tell the story from that point onward. It's said in at least one that Eve always knew that in Adam's heart he still held a love for Lilith, and knowing this always brought her sadness. Plus there's the whole expulsion-from-the-garden thing to really ensure we just keep blaming Eve for everything that ever went wrong. Interestingly, there's another tale from the middle ages that suggests that Lucifer and Lilith, in a pique of spitefulness towards Adam, sneak into the garden and tempt Adam and Eve into being unfaithful to one another, and thus we have an alternative "forbidden fruit" metaphore.

Anyway, God bless strong-willed women who do things their own way everywhere - if Adam had had things all his own way, the world might just have ended up a mighty dull place

You can go back to your genetics discussion now

You know, the Dave's have a ban on religion bashing.

But hell I'm Christian and bugger it, thats just funny as hell.

We got nothing against religous jokes. It's just there's a very visible line between joking and bashing. We're not going to insult anyone's intelligence and tell you what's what...

It's just honestly, there's a thin line of tolerance that some people have with the topics of religous and politics (going both ways) that I have personally seen forums that were at one time totally pleasant to be around, turn into extremely uncomfortable places to be, and it's brought down by one of two people who just totally ruin the fun.

And to make it worse... 99% of the time, the people don't even realize that they're destroying a forum and destroying fun. THey thought they were actually being informative about it. (Unfortunately with politics and religion, it's all opinion based, and opinions are like assholes... Everyone has them.)

So in short, if it's a funny joke or something like that... The board isn't so far up our asses that we can't laugh about it. Hell, I've made tons of "Pope Palpatine" jokes since Benedict II come to power. It's just it's obvious when it's playful joking... Even playful joking with a hint of truth... And when it's outright bashing.

ANd yeah... That was funny.

Just to get everything square just in case someone comes into this and perhaps misunderstands me, I have friends of all kinds of faiths; I'm lucky enought to include in that Jews, Orthodox Christians, at least one lapsed Catholic and a whole family of Hindus from Trinidad of all places. My old man, God rest him, put up a loa shrine to Ghede in our house when I was a teenager, so I guess I can include a believer in Voodoo also (having an eccentric parent can seriously mess you up, kids ). I also have friends who happily sit on the atheist's side of the fence. That's the side I sit on myself, I should add. I've never managed to offend any of my religious friends with my occasional rather poor-taste jokes as they know I'm just joking, and while I have no faith I can really call my own save believing in myself, I would never bash another person's faith. If that's the path they choose to walk, I wouldn't dream of telling them they were wrong to do so - so hopefully no one else would misunderstand me here.

All I did here was tell a story that was told to me in more or less the same way by a pretty devout Jewish fella (I was a bit more contemporary in my parlance, granted, but it's the same story). It's Talmudic folklaw; it's literally a story using established characters that fills the role of a metaphore or parable, and it's arguable as to what place it fits in the Talmud, if at all. Gaiman told some of it in his Dreaming series if I remember rightly (it's been forever since I read the books). I've always had a bit of a fetish for the stories that revolve around Lilith (and my other half is interestingly enough a very strong-willed, independent, smart and sassy redhead... seems old stories can mess you up too ) and I've got to have read a good dozen variations on the tale from various centuries, countries and even faiths, so I thought I'd give the Scientific Eve here a little Metaphysical company, and I love telling a good story!

And if it got a few laughs, hey, it's all good in the 'hood

why dont we refer to god now as Godzillia (crocodylus pontifex).
1.Godzilla is never disclosed as being male or female
2.Godzilla takes no one's side buut his own
3. God is in Godzilla's name.

anyway even if you try to relate charon to lilith you have to remember that lilith comes from lilitu a demon (it's debatable if they actually had a gender or just a hole) named after lillu the father of gilgamesh.

in other words the jewish lilith came long after the original and was most likely a way for old jewish grandfathers to explain things from other religions that seemed real, like giants to their grandsons.

on a related note, lilitu were succubae ancient succubae which normally incorperated parts of a animal, they most likely explained some kind of shota molestation in the form of euphemism. also like i said lilith comes from lilitu and that comes from lillu, lillu was a sumerian king way back when prima nocta was mandatory for a king which lead to the fact that he must have continued it after more than one night hence leading to his classification as a demon after his death. the amusing part is that his son gilgamesh the first superhuman in literature did the same thing but was loved because well he built a wall around the city by himself oh and because he brought them all laughter by getting cheated out of immortality by a snake, and yet some how Christopher Lambert achieved it by being shanked by Clancy Brown.

anyway although the focus is mother daughter relationships i think the ones between hydra and dagon or nodens and the mckays will be more interesting!