Shadowgirls

Figured I'd start a thread for the links between the Shadowgirls/Lovecraft Mythology and that of Native Americans.

Firstly, I notice this from the Navajo mythology on wikipedia:

"Death and the Monsters are born into this world, as is Changing Woman, who gives birth to the Hero Twins called "Monster Slayer" and "Child of the Waters" who had many adventures in which they helped to rid the world of much evil."
Wikipedia article on Navajo Mythology

DREY wrote:
"Charon... Just one thing I want to point out. She was found wandering the DESERT. Not many deserts in the New England area. That's mostly out in the western United States. So water and fish monsters might be a bit hard to come by... But isn't there a very spiritual culture that comes from that area of North America with it's own very defining legends and myths?"

WIKIPEDIA list of North American Mythologies
Encyclopedia Mythica's Native American mythology (thanks to Forsythe for this link)

Just read this:
"There's plenty of Cthulhuvian lore as well, linked interestingly with Hopi mythology to explain why a gate to the netherworld might be located under the Southwestern desert"
HERE

Charles... that's from a book review, said book being a work of fiction attempting to link the mythos of Conan and Cthulhu. The source is hardly canon, so I don't get where you're going with this, man.

Actually, Lovecraft and Robert E. Howard were friends in the same circle of writers along with Clark Ashton Smith, E. Hoffmann Price, and August Derilith, working together on a lot of the Weird Tales Pulp Magazines. Many of the stories would cross over with one another and it's generally considered the same universe. A lot of the books shared similar concepts with each other, as they all contirbuted to what we now call the Cthulhu Mythos.

Yes, this means that Conan the Barbarian and Cthulhu are in the same universe.

Interesting, I had no idea, thanks for the info man. The book's the product of an author who is not Lovecraft or Howard, though, so I still don't get the point.

according to some sources Lovecraft liked other people to play in his sandbox. As a result, a lot of what we accept as canon not only was not written by Lovecraft, but was written after his death - even long after his death. So this book could become canon, in part because of groups like us accepting it. If it plays into the Shadowgirls/Mythmakers universe, why shouldn't we? Well, the reviewer may be right, and the book may not be worth reading, but other than that...

The point is this. (should have summarised better when I moved this on from the other thopic).

It started in the Chrysalis topic where I mentioned that we'd presumed Charon had her Chrysalis installed at birth like Christmas. But the master installed it magickally not surgically and in a controlled, magickal environment. I mentioned that its possible, Charon had the Chrysalis installed at the age of 15 by coming in contact with an artifact and the less-than-ideal insertion of it may be the cause for the incorrect transference to Becka.

DRey then stated that we needed to remember Charon was found in a desert but there's not many deserts out there. Look East however and not only do you find desert but some interesting cultures with their own set of myths and legends.

Despite spending much time on searching for what Elder God could have possessed the Shadowgirls, I never managed to figure out it was Nodens (Although I recall coming across the celtic and lovecraft wikipedia articles on him and reading them). When it was revealed, it was obvious, since not only was he a celtic god, with the McKay's coming from Ireland, but Lovecraft had an elder god named after and based off him, who supported (or rather didn't aim to kill) the human race.

I knew to search for celtic Gods but not link it to the Lovecraft Mythos. Now I know I'm looking for a Native North American myth or legend, I'm checking for any stories or gods that Lovecraft based on their existing myth and mythology. But as DRey states, Lovecraft was part of a circle of writers who used much of each other's materials and even crossed over to each other's worlds (much like the different writers of the DC and Marvel universes cross over and team up). Thus, I'm not limiting my search to just the Lovecraft Mythos but the Cuthulian Mythos.

Ofcourse the DRs haven't stuck to the Mythos but expanded and created their own, so the link may be vague or possibly they've made a new one up and it could be any Native North American legend or myth. If I took that stance, then the most interesting legend, that I haven't manged to link to Lovecraft yet, is that of Spiderwoman (aka spider grandmother) and how she assisted with man-kind's assention to the 4th world thorugh a reed which surfaced somewhere in the desert that Charon was likely found in. Although I'm uncertain what it may have to do with the Shadowgirls, if the bloke above is talking about links between the Lovecraft Mythos, Hopi Mythology and a gate to the netherworld (which Nodens is the lord of) It might start to add up a bit.

As ususal, it's all just my own theories and speculation but I am following a vague path of reasoning rather than just throwing anything and everything out there.

WIKIPEDIA LINK ON HOPI MYTHOLOGY
(note the matrilinial society)

EDIT: found that Lovecraft used Wendigo in his mythos as well. My only link to it is it's a Native North American myth/legend but I have no Idea what it may be unless there's some story such as the previous shadowchild fighting it, sustaining a mortal wound and passing the powers to Charon before dying. Heck, we still don't know how the heck Charon made it all the way out to the desert in the first place. Family vacation that her parents died in? Teleported there from Innsmouth by the forces who inserted the Chrysalis? *shrug*

Lemme throw some more crap at you to make your life more miserable.

What if it's not so much that Charon got the Chrysalis inserted into her at a late age, but more she ws already pregnant when it happened? What if the same process that happened with Chrissy/Misty isn't the same situation with the McKay girls. And we're only led to assume it is? What if her situation was something completely different that has yet to be revealed? You mentioned the McKay Irish heritages and you're poking around those elements.

We know there's been other Shadowgirls before these girls. How far apart do they appear? Generational? Whenever? Was the previous Shadowgirl around when Deep One Prime supposedly "screwed things up" 80 years ago? or was that something else? What exactly is the purpose of the Shadowgirl? And is a Shadowchild the same as a Shadowgirl? (You'll note that there's only one time in the entire comic the girls have been called Shadowgirls.)

We've mentioned we're tackling other mythologies with this as well. Well, what's basically our current day mythology?

Eryx, I'm just a stickler for canonical sources - it would be too easy to pick and choose amongst the various 3rd-parties' works for something that gave immense power with no liabilities. And as much as I like the comic, I would not use it as a source in another context.

Ahh, gotcha, Charles - I thought you were using that book as a definitive source to link the two. I'm good w/ theories, tho.

DRey, interesting... and Catholicism is still very much in vogue currently.

(this post is much shorter than the original, which got lost when the forum tanked a few hrs ago)

DRey,

haha, I do love the chase for the truth as much as the truth it's self. It's just that every time you give us a tid bit, I can already see the mountain of possibilities before me to search through. But I still love it.

And yes, I recall you telling us that your plans for next season would show that your not sticking to just lovecraft. But thats why I never looked for a combination of Celtic and Lovecraft mythology to find Nodens. I figured that Lovecraft was just something for this season and the Shadowgirl was a completely different entity. This time I'll keep possible Lovecraft links in mind the whole way through.

I guess Deep One Prime (aka BP, Big Purple) may only be aware of the process for bringing forth MothaH and simply guessed that it was the same for the Shadowchild. It could be a natural genetic thing, passed from daughter to daughter. It may even be that the power of the Shadowchild is always split. With the last name McKay, It's likely that Charon's grandmother was her father's mother, so if Charon's mother died early in her life, she'd never have known the truth, but I do wonder if it's a conincidence that Susan Shane had the same first name as her grandmother. The fact that it's kept to the Irish decendents (as far as we know) shows that it's probably no coincidence that Charon was chosen.

We probably haven't guessed that Charon was already pregnant because we tend to believe she was innocent of cheating on Jackson (not that they may have been more than just friends at the time). It's possible she was raped or something horrible like that, which may explain why she's now going through every man in Innsmouth (an attempt to make the rape seem like nothing). But it's just as likely that we're holding her up on a pedestal and she really did have sex with some bloke and fall naturally pregnant as a result.

Heck, I wouldn't be surprised to find that you guys are still making minor adjustments and changes to that story, even now.

One thing that troubles my mind... If Charon was fully back to her self after Becka's birth then why did she spend 6 months in the mental house? She knew something was wrong when the progenitors first attacked her, but when sawyer asked her about the incident she seemed to remember but suppressed it. When Becka snapped her out of the wild state in the cornfields, she remarked on how it was all real, but was she just talking about the incident outside Lucky's or is there an earlier incident as well? It's possible that she told psychiatrists a wild tale of monsters and magick which made them keep her in the mental ward until she forced herself to pretend it never happened.

forsythe: Yeah, I've had that a few times and I've just learnt to copy the text before submitting it. Sometimes you can take so long to post that your login times out and other time's it's the site it's self. (ha! lucky I followed my own advice as I've just pasted this in for a second attempt at posting *lol*)

EDIT: for what it's worth, here's the page where they're called SHADOWGIRLS

Well, I'm speaking as a fan here and not the co-creator. (Which understand, even though I work on the book, I am still a fan. I get excited when I get a script.) That said, my theory of how Charon ended up the way she is has a lot to do with a hiding from the truth. The entire comic so far has been all about that one line that Becka said to Deep One Prime. "If you have two choices, you can usually tell which one is right. Because it's the hardest one."

Think about that line for a moment. The entire series so far, is about people hiding from the truth. Everyone was trying to pretend to be something they weren't. Taking the easy way out. Be it through lying, blaming, alcohol, running away, whatever. And they all turned out the way they did, because they took the easy way out instead of trying the hard and RIGHT way.

Charon and Jack both ran away from each other, as opposed to finding comfort and strength in one another, because at that time, with Nana Susan's death... It was just easier for the two of them to walk away. And look what happened? Alcoholism and a loveless marriage.

Christmas would never accept responsibility for her action, even though she knows they're wrong, and then she tries to lie to herself to cover it up. She knows Charon didn't kill her friends... But she doesn't want to confront the reality of what happened. Even now with her daughter being the living flashbulb, she's still denying what's real... Because it's easier than confronting her own past.

Misty KNOWS she's evil. And she doesn't care, because just going along with the grand scheme of the EoD is easier than doing what's right... That is, if she knew what right was in the first place.

Deep One Prime knows Becka's right and Misty's wrong, but he hides behind his obligations to his father as opposed to doing the right thing.

Becka lied to her mother about rave as opposed to just talking to her honestly about it. Seriously, this is Charon... She would have met somewhere halfway in this. But she hide the truth from her about Misty being there because it was easier than having that conversation, and she didn't want to disappoint Lindsey.

Lindsey...

...She was the first to break that cycle. Followed by Becka forgiving her and Jack turning on his wife.

The entire series is about owning up to your past and redemption.

That's my thoughts at least.

See...and this whole time I thought it was scantily clad women fighting monsters.

I better get back to work and try to be meaningful or this is gonna bite me the ass real good.

DRod,

BWAAHAHAHA. Trust you to ruin a deep and meaningful look into the series *lol*

I picked up on the point that violence OR wrath of the great father can kill a deep one, so I've been figuring that the Deep Ones immortality is supplied by their obedience. Disobedience may lead to mortality or maybe instant death for them. I guess thats the hard road to take, but Deep One Prime probably held MothaH to be benevolent, together with the Great Father. No-doubt that is now in question. (has he already dis-obeyed by lying to her?)

I wonder if Charon will accept Jackson back, or if she has a truth to reveal to him. Did she really cheat on him? Or has she known about the shadowchild all along and suppressed or denied it to escape the mental hospital?

Will Christmas "play her part" whatever that may be or will she break her own cycle and will that have some affect on her daughter or is she beyond saving?

OH GOD! Jackson and Charon get married, that means Misty and Becka are step sisters! ARGHHH.

I need to find some more Indian references to get this topic back on track.

Forsythe wrote:Eryx, I'm just a stickler for canonical sources - it would be too easy to pick and choose amongst the various 3rd-parties' works for something that gave immense power with no liabilities. And as much as I like the comic, I would not use it as a source in another context.

I was joking about the book being canon, but I'd be interested in knowing how to figure out what is canon. If you only accept works by Lovecraft, you ignore all the derivative and contributing work by his contemporary friends that Lovecraft knew about and at worst, didn't mind.

I wouldn't call Shadowgirls canon either. Yet. In a few years, who knows. It's definitely quality work.

Eryx wrote:If you only accept works by Lovecraft, you ignore all the derivative and contributing work by his contemporary friends that Lovecraft knew about and at worst, didn't mind.

Yep, that's about the size of it for me, and he can't exactly say which he likes anymore, so we end up having to trust 3rd-party sources as to which he did and didn't allow into his universe - and then, we end up with things like Cthulhu's good-aligned brother.

Eryx wrote:I wouldn't call Shadowgirls canon either. Yet. In a few years, who knows. It's definitely quality work.

Heh... it's certainly quality, and I do love a good story, but it'll never be canon for me.