Shadowgirls

Chysgoda wrote:

Jacobus wrote:

Bounty wrote:gay is a human concept, largely dependant upon having two sexes. Deep one reproduction is a tad more... involved... and things like gender don't really enter into it. It's like like how Loki can be a brother to Odin, and the Monther of Fenir, but a bit more freeky, what with the tenticles, and extradimentional parts...

Brother to Odin, mother of Fenrir/Fenris, Jormudyr (spelling?) and Hel. Tool of all ages.

Actually blood brother to Odin (not biological, brother's by choice, See here)
Father to Fenrir, Jörmungandr (the midgard serpent) and Hel (all three by the giantess Angrboda)
mother to Sleipnir (Odin's eight legged horse)
Loki was also a shape shifter so gender rules can be blurry

oh shite! i had it a tad muddled. But yeah I remember that now. Tehehehe Tyr . . .

Chysgoda wrote:Actually blood brother to Odin (not biological, brother's by choice, See here)
Father to Fenrir, Jörmungandr (the midgard serpent) and Hel (all three by the giantess Angrboda)
mother to Sleipnir (Odin's eight legged horse)
Loki was also a shape shifter so gender rules can be blurry

Well yea, if you've got the time and inclination (and ability to spell in Germanic) you can go through the whole list of Liniage like a Viking preparing for single combat, but the point was Shape-shifters don't have Gender roles, because they lack an inherient gender.

Bounty wrote:

Chysgoda wrote:Actually blood brother to Odin (not biological, brother's by choice, See here)
Father to Fenrir, Jörmungandr (the midgard serpent) and Hel (all three by the giantess Angrboda)
mother to Sleipnir (Odin's eight legged horse)
Loki was also a shape shifter so gender rules can be blurry

Well yea, if you've got the time and inclination (and ability to spell in Germanic) you can go through the whole list of Liniage like a Viking preparing for single combat, but the point was Shape-shifters don't have Gender roles, because they lack an inherient gender.

Yeah i get that, but it fun to touch up on my norse history . . . That's right history! It happened!

Jacobus wrote:

Bounty wrote:

Chysgoda wrote:Actually blood brother to Odin (not biological, brother's by choice, See here)
Father to Fenrir, Jörmungandr (the midgard serpent) and Hel (all three by the giantess Angrboda)
mother to Sleipnir (Odin's eight legged horse)
Loki was also a shape shifter so gender rules can be blurry

Well yea, if you've got the time and inclination (and ability to spell in Germanic) you can go through the whole list of Liniage like a Viking preparing for single combat, but the point was Shape-shifters don't have Gender roles, because they lack an inherient gender.

Yeah i get that, but it fun to touch up on my norse history . . . That's right history! It happened!

Depending on your Veda. Some of the existing written ones actually have a chapter after Ragnorok, where two humans, who's names are as close to the Herbreic meanings of Adam and Eve as you can get in Germanic, come out of the ashes to repopulate the new world, meaning that the whole of Mythic Norseland happened before Christianity.

As far as nongender specific shapeshifters goes... Not necessarily. Oft times, there is a master gender in the role and the shifting to the other gender . While a male shifter would become a female, the default mode would be the original sex. It’s been suggested (and of course no one can prove or disprove it either) that the elements that make us our specific genders are not just the xx and xy chromosome, but also the psychological position of the individual.

For example, say I took a male mind and put it into the body of a female. Would that person be a lesbian and still be attracted to females, or would the hormones and physical attributes eventually work it’s way into the mind and they’d be attracted to males? Or both? While our physical bodies are important, classic science fiction has shown us that our minds are who were truly are, and our genders play an important role in that shaping of our identities.

And as far as the Norse Mythology verses the Christianity Foundation of which came first...

Im gonna say Mitochondrial Eve, at probably 140,000 years ago in Ehtiopia or Tanzania.

I think the US laws for having a sex change require a psychological test to prove you're of a female's mind. It's not just a matter of being homosexual.

I think they recently proved that homosexuality is genetic by managing to produce "lesbian worms" (I'm not kidding).

Why is this significant? It means psychologists and psychiatrists can't go around claiming homosexuality is a mental disorder which they can cure.

Charles wrote:I think the US laws for having a sex change require a psychological test to prove you're of a female's mind. It's not just a matter of being homosexual.

I think they recently proved that homosexuality is genetic by managing to produce "lesbian worms" (I'm not kidding).

Why is this significant? It means psychologists and psychiatrists can't go around claiming homosexuality is a mental disorder which they can cure.

True, it becomes a genetic abnormality that, some hope, can be screened for. Then you can abort homosexual fetuses, like you would ones with down's syndrome.

Personally I think that's a bit unlikely as a major issue as most people who strongly oppose homosexuality as a lifestyle have a more strenuous objection to abortion, but still....

Mach Sabre wrote:Im gonna say Mitochondrial Eve, at probably 140,000 years ago in Ehtiopia or Tanzania.

Discounting the most obvious "Any being capable of creating all of reality is capable of making 1 skeleton that looks really old." There are still a few potential objections to the dating. Strata dating can be imprecise. Carbon 14 dating is, by it's nature, variable on the order of 1 in 7 I believe, and there are documented cases of recently deceiced tissues testing a several mellenia old. There's also the old cop-out of impresise linguistics too, if you're inclined that direction.

Mach Sabre wrote:As far as nongender specific shapeshifters goes... Not necessarily. Oft times, there is a master gender in the role and the shifting to the other gender . While a male shifter would become a female, the default mode would be the original sex. It’s been suggested (and of course no one can prove or disprove it either) that the elements that make us our specific genders are not just the xx and xy chromosome, but also the psychological position of the individual.

For example, say I took a male mind and put it into the body of a female. Would that person be a lesbian and still be attracted to females, or would the hormones and physical attributes eventually work it’s way into the mind and they’d be attracted to males? Or both? While our physical bodies are important, classic science fiction has shown us that our minds are who were truly are, and our genders play an important role in that shaping of our identities.

And as far as the Norse Mythology verses the Christianity Foundation of which came first...

Im gonna say Mitochondrial Eve, at probably 140,000 years ago in Ehtiopia or Tanzania.

This conversation lost me back here . . .

Jacobus wrote:

Mach Sabre wrote:As far as nongender specific shapeshifters goes... Not necessarily. Oft times, there is a master gender in the role and the shifting to the other gender . While a male shifter would become a female, the default mode would be the original sex. It’s been suggested (and of course no one can prove or disprove it either) that the elements that make us our specific genders are not just the xx and xy chromosome, but also the psychological position of the individual.

For example, say I took a male mind and put it into the body of a female. Would that person be a lesbian and still be attracted to females, or would the hormones and physical attributes eventually work it’s way into the mind and they’d be attracted to males? Or both? While our physical bodies are important, classic science fiction has shown us that our minds are who were truly are, and our genders play an important role in that shaping of our identities.

And as far as the Norse Mythology verses the Christianity Foundation of which came first...

Im gonna say Mitochondrial Eve, at probably 140,000 years ago in Ehtiopia or Tanzania.

This conversation lost me back here . . .

The dave is pointing out that
a) Shapeshifters would assume Male/Female shapes/roles based on teh dominant/submissive relationship of the pairing, but that,
b)gender is as much psychological as biological, and that being female in form may or may not be enough to make one 'femanine.'
c) That in the debate of Norse Myths vs. Christian myths, and which came first, he refers us to the Theoretical Evolutionary proto-human.

Well, we're not talking timelines, we're talkin' genetics here. Carbon dating isn't really a factor in this, it's more Phylogenetics and Generation Mathematics that give us our time frame. But you need to remember, this is all theory, and in a way, science theory, until proven, is just as questionable as any myth or religion.

No one (in their right mind) had said that Mitochondrial Eve is the "genesis of all humans" as that would lead more to a population bottlenecking. She's not so much a single person as much as she is the most recent common matrilineal ancestor of all humans via the mitochondrial DNA pathway, and not the unqualified most recent common ancestor of all humanity. (Slight difference. Like the differences between fact and truth.) All living humans can trace their ancestry back to the most recent common ancestor via at least one of their parents, but Mitochondrial Eve can only be reached via the maternal line.

In otherwords, "she's the mother of our mother".

Keep that line in mind over the next several page updates. Trust me, it'll make it all cooler for you.

Mach Sabre wrote:Well, we're not talking timelines, we're talkin' genetics here. Carbon dating isn't really a factor in this, it's more Phylogenetics and Generation Mathematics that give us our time frame. But you need to remember, this is all theory, and in a way, science theory, until proven, is just as questionable as any myth or religion.

No one (in their right mind) had said that Mitochondrial Eve is the "genesis of all humans" as that would lead more to a population bottlenecking. She's not so much a single person as much as she is the most recent common matrilineal ancestor of all humans via the mitochondrial DNA pathway, and not the unqualified most recent common ancestor of all humanity. (Slight difference. Like the differences between fact and truth.) All living humans can trace their ancestry back to the most recent common ancestor via at least one of their parents, but Mitochondrial Eve can only be reached via the maternal line.

In otherwords, "she's the mother of our mother".

Keep that line in mind over the next several page updates. Trust me, it'll make it all cooler for you.

Wait, if there is some twisted thing, where Misty, is her mother mother, then i'ma scared.

Oh and i got all the shapeshifting references, it was the dead chick your talking about that's confusing me.

The theory about Mitochondrial Eve is that she was a woman that lived in Arica some eon or so ago, that carries the same DNA paths that in all humans alive, making her our ancestor.

Mach Sabre wrote:The theory about Mitochondrial Eve is that she was a woman that lived in Arica some eon or so ago, that carries the same DNA paths that in all humans alive, making her our ancestor.

Does that make you my . . . 12040th cousin twice removed?

Bounty wrote:The dave is pointing out that
a) Shapeshifters would assume Male/Female shapes/roles based on teh dominant/submissive relationship of the pairing, but that,
b)gender is as much psychological as biological, and that being female in form may or may not be enough to make one 'feminine.'
c) That in the debate of Norse Myths vs. Christian myths, and which came first, he refers us to the Theoretical Evolutionary proto-human.

Just like to point out a few things,
Dominant/submissive isn't particularly gender specific. I'd like to watch anyone try and tell someone like Charon that as she is female she should be submissive. There'd be a couple of person shaped holes in the walls.

As for Norse and Christian myths, it's more likely that a Skald (Norse storyteller) was making the Norse myths more "politically correct" by trying to shoe horn them to fitting into the newly introduced Christian mythos. As far as mythologies go, the Christian mythos is much younger, it just was one of the first European ones to write stuff down. Most of the western European mythology that we see (aside from Greek/Roman) is Christianized because it didn't get written down until some Monk got bored.